UBB.Developers Forums General Discussion Suggestions and Feedback Template Experiment

This thread is continued from http://www.wwwthreads.com/perl/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=wishlist&Number=16894

Over on the devel site I have converted a couple of the scripts to templates. Most of the functions from w3t.pm that print out HTML are finished. I've also finished with wwwthreads.pl and postlist.pl.

This seems to be working very nicely. It does require several templates for complicated scripts, like postlist.pl requires 5 different templates, with 2 of the templates having 4 variations, but this will probably be the exception instead of the rule. wwwthreads.pl required 5 templates but there were no variations of any of the templates. The majority of the other scripts will probably only require one or two. It might sound confusing, but it's not that bad.

Anyone interested can go look at the devel site at http://www.wwwthreads.com/cgi-bin/devel/wwwthreads.pl. Take a look at wwwthreads.pl or postlist.pl, view the source and you will see where each template begins and ends as I've commented the templates for this purpose.

I've also symlinked the templates directory if anyone wants to take a look at the actual templates to see what they look like. You'll probably need to again view the source of these as when you click on them your browser might try to display them. You can view the templates at http://www.wwwthreads.com/templates.

Also, at the bottom of the template directory listing, you'll see the README file that will be included in the templates directory if you care to read it.

Feedback appreciated.

Edited by Scream on 6/8/00 03:28 PM.

Wow Scream!

This is excellent!! I am looking foward to using templates instead of having to mess with the perl code. One suggestion, as far as the name of the templates go, could you end them with a name that describes what html they output and not just a number? I really like it []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]
Mike

Scream,

The templates look excellent!! Will be much easier to fool around with the design of the forum - how far do you plan to go with the templates? All files? Just the major ones that are most commonly used, or??

Thanks!

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

I originally was being a bit more descriptive, but then the name of the templates ended up being very large. That's why I went with numbers and then in the README it explains what each template actually prints out. I'll see if I can come up with some descriptions that will keep the template name down to a decent size, but can't guarantee anything.

Edited by Scream on 6/9/00 09:17 AM.

The plan is to do every file in the user's section. The admin section will remain the same.

Scream,

will it be possible to have different looks for the categories? I would love to have the chance to have different styles in the categories.

Carsten

--
Carsten Müller, Hamburg (Germany)

Not at first. That's a feature that various people have asked for. Templates make this possible, but it would be a bit too complex for starters because I still don't know what type of issues or problems templates are going to create on various files. I'm just starting out on this so I don't want to promise too much before I know what I'm doing[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/].

You know, Sony Music does this somehow... but their forum is quite custom it seems.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

It looks very promising.

Two priorities, I think.
1. Cross-browser compatibility.
2. Very short names - for speed (plus the explanatory README).


[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Sorry for being the 'odd one out' but I think it's way too complicated.. Might as well edit perl directly...

May I suggest you try something like 1 per script... where you have tags for repeating sections.. e.g. (tags shown as '{' and '}')

postlist.pl example:

Header info goes here

Header row info for table
{ITEM}
Formatting for each
{/ITEM}
End of table stuff


The {ITEM} {/ITEM} would repeat for each post that existed in the forum. This would make the templates look very 'real'...

Don't think of this as a bad remark on what you've done.. but as a positive comment. I admit I would probably give up myself :-)

My idea does have one drawback.. it's not possible for individuals to specify different templates for different parts of the same pages. T.b. honest.. I don't think that a web site colours are the key to its success.... People go to web sites for what they offer... Customization of the kind 'what information you want to see' is good.. - Therefore.. for any 'choose your skin' options... please make them optional (i.e. admin can disable)

Sebastien.



[:red]Sebastien Lahtinen
[i][:white]www.chatsplat.com
[][email protected][/]

Scream,

I think this could work very well. One thing that I'm concerned about though--will this have any significant impact on server load? It seems to me that at the very least, each perl script is going to have to open one template file, parse it, and display the results. Will this be too minimal to really make a difference either way?

I think the template concept will always have an impact on server load... Maybe they can be compiled into a better format?

Top performance-wise would be to make a system which rebuilt the CGI.. but that would make it hard to edit the CGI which is something people like me want to do...

seb


[:red]Sebastien Lahtinen
[i][:white]www.chatsplat.com
[][email protected][/]

It may seem alot more complicated, but even though there are several templates per script it will end up being a lot easier, especially for PERL novices. The reason being is without templates the HTML is buried in ifs and elses, and it's spread out over various portions of the script. With templates all of the HTML for that portion of the script is in one place.

Your thoughts about 1 template per script is something that I had wished for as well. But, unfortunately, it's not the way the FastTemplate module works. Maybe someday I can write my own to do something like this. It's highly possible, because I never really thought there was a chance to do templates period a couple of weeks ago.

Very good question, and I share your concerns. Once I get a few more scripts done then I'll do some tests and see what type of load impact this has. My *guess* is that it won't have too much of an impact, because it does the parsing in a singular regular expression. Also, using templates cuts down on some of the code complexity.

Once I get the template version done I'll put it out in beta mode so people can test it before making it a general release, so I can get more feedback on it.

Please make it easy to put the templates back into the scripts then.. i'd rather have them in perl.. Will this be possible?

Although my idea would make it complex.. it wouldn't necessary be that hard as templates are pre-built.. so you only edit them at novice level

ALSO.. please add the subject to the "e-mail any replies to me" option... At the moment it has url + text.. no subject

seb


[:red]Sebastien Lahtinen
[i][:white]www.chatsplat.com
[][email protected][/]

That wouldn't really be possible. The main reason being is that there are different templates for different portions of the code depending on the user preferences.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to try and shove templates down anybody's throat's[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]. But, using templates has been the oldest and most requested feature wishlist by potential and existing customers. So, it's one of those things that if it works and the majority of users want it, then it'll go in. If the majority do not, then it won't and it will have been a big waste of my time[]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]. Either way, I've got to at least try because so many have asked for it.

People want templates as it makes customization easy. I agree with that, and I think many will accept your system.

My hope is that I can keep up with new things in w3t but still have it in perl (assuming they aren't all single templates).. It's a personal preference and I wouldn't expect you to keep it there for me... but i don't think it's that hard to put it back like that if someone like me wants.. and once someone does it.. other people can just copy that script :-) (there are some people who want it in perl for efficiency reasons ANYWAY)

seb


[:red]Sebastien Lahtinen
[i][:white]www.chatsplat.com
[][email protected][/]

The system looks promising. One question for now, does this template system parse templates for SSI calls? It may not do so initially but I've seen it in other template based scripts, and I think it would make it a lot more easy to blend W3T with other dynamic areas of a site.

This is a thought I had when I made my first post on the subject, so I'm glad to hear someone else mention it.

If a good system could be put together, we could have the best of both worlds--easy HTML customizing through templates, and maximum system efficiency by cutting the templates out of runtime compilation.

It would be more complicated to put this system together for Scream, but it's something to think about.

I've been looking at this hack that allows SSIs to work within CGI-generated output:
http://www.wwwthreads.com/perl/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=custom&Number=15791 and wondering how/if it could be incorporated into the new template system. Or is that already covered?

[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Scream, Just for information and certainly not to put you under stress: any idea on some deadline of the beta release?
I am so impatient to play with it. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Not real sure at this point. I've almost finished with the hardest scripts, (showflat,showthreaded,postlist,wwwthreads, etc). Once I get done with the tough ones I should have a better idea of what type of timeframe it will be for the beta. Just don't want to open my mouth too soon and then run into some complications that will delay the release.

Been thinking about this a little more. Since I really don't know what the general response will be to the templates, I don't really think it would be wise to spend alot of time moving every script over to templates.

I have finished the main scripts that are used the most often, (wwwthreads.pl, postlist.pl, showflat.pl and showthreaded.pl). So, at this point I think what I will do is release a beta within the next week or so. This way I can get some feedback before moving on with finishing all of the scripts.

This is a wise strategy, at my point of view.

I do not see why templates will not have acceptance. If the default templates recreate wwwthreads as you ship it now (in other words, templates will reflect the actual wwwthreads look) there should be nothing to fear. If the customer want further customization, then the templates are there, ready to be changed. The other solution to not having templates is to edit every script, one by one, manually and loosing the changes on the next upgrade, which one is better? To be honest, the actual look of wwwthreads is not that great and I have seen people who purchased the product made little or no changes to it, which I consider it lame (yeah, I can see the flames already).

The lacking of templates is what is holding me back from buying wwwthreads. And I think that if you are going to implement templates, you should do it all (all scripts) or nothing. There is nothing more annoying than a work half done.

Cheers!

The main reason I'm thinking of releasing an early beta for testing the templates is because there is some concern of CPU useage. While I don't think it will be an issue, I can't say for sure until we actually get it into testing.

And also, what is done so far comprises the majority of how the program will look. All of the headers, footers, menus, etc have been moved into templates, along with the heavily used scripts. Naturally the rest will need to be finished, but this would probably give a good indicator for everyone to test to see if it is worthwile.

Of course I can do this however the majority wants it. I can just go all out and finish all of the front-end scripts and then release the beta, or I can release it early. Just let me know.

Edited by Scream on 6/26/00 02:02 PM.

Early release, please!

[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Me too. Early release, please!
Hope this week? []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Finish first. We can stop behaving like kids for a while, we promise. Just finish it, we can wait...

What ever happened to the idea of throwing in the best hacks around (e.g. the private messages "Outbox" and "Read Receipt", inline images etc.)? Are you still planning on doing this?

Yeah I still plan on doing that. My apologies for jumping ship and working on the templates first. The reason being I never really thought templates were possible and this was probably one of the oldest requests for the program. One way or the other, if the templates work for everyone or if they don't, the inclusion of the hacks will be next.

Ok, what I will do is release a beta or dev release, so anyone can test the templates, and then I'll just keep working on them to finish up with them. This way it won't delay the progress of them if it works out, but anyone who wants to will still be able to play around with them.

I will try to get this out today, but don't know if I'll be able to for sure. Leaving for a few days to go to Victoria, BC for the holiday weekend.

I've been using templates in various programs for well over a year, and I'm glad to see that this is happening here. This program was a real bear to modify, and each release rquired the same mods over and over. Templates are a way of keeping the look/feel of a site but still upgrading the back end code.

One thought.

Many of the templates are very short, but they still require an I/O operation.

What about creating a "template file" for most of the short code.

This would create one I/O operation per script run, at the expense of a little memory. Most of the templates are showing up as 1K, which means you could probably realize a significant advantage by creating a HASH of template entries, then defining each entry inside a single TEMPLATES.TPL file.

While there is some thought to keeping each template in a single file, so one edit won't screw up all the other templates, there is also a significant advantage to having one file, with all the various templates defined, then each variable fleshed out.

For ultimate compatibility, if a HASH entry is NULL, then the program would look for the file on disk.

This would work for user-defined profiles as well, since which TEMPLATES.TPL file is opened could be defined by the user profile.

This would also allow one more level of abstraction. Lets say you are developing a community site. If the template parser _only_ recognized a certain set of tags and HTML commands, then a user could create their own "configuration file" and change the look of the program to suit their own tastes or needs.

Templates are an exciting programming tool, and once you start to play with them, you start to wonder how you did with out them :)

Because the TEMPLATE.TPL file would essentially be a very large "static" or "constant" definition file, it could probably be set up as a '.pm' file, and pre-loaded into apache/mod_perl so there would only be ONE instance of the program code, and no I/O operation except on start up.

The mind keeps wandering... doesn't it??

Sorry for cross-posting this but it's rather urgent for me and may prove crucial for the general acceptance of the new templates:

I've put in a request to CIHost for them to install CGI::FastTemplate but who knows...

It says in the readme:

If you want to test out the module without installing it, you can add
the following to your code:

BEGIN
{
unshift(@INC, "/wherever/you/put/CGI-FastTemplate/");
}

use CGI::FastTemplate;


I assume that's the equivalent of 'installing locally'.
So, how does that translate for w3t?
Can I put FastTemplate.pm in my local cgi-bin and use:

unshift(@INC, "/www/amdragon/cgi-bin/");

and which files do I need to add this to?


[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Eileen,

I believe the only place you would need to add this would be in w3t.pm. But, you might not even need to do that if you put the module in the main wwwthreads directory. The scripts will look in the current directory for any modules they are trying to use.

Hey, that sounds great. I'll try it in the main wwwthreads directory first.

[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Yee-hah! We're in business! It looks for 'CGI/FastTemplate.pm'
so I made a /CGI subdir under my cgi-bin directory and put it in there (then I can use it for other stuff too)
Then in w3t.pm just above:

use CGI::FastTemplate();

I put:

BEGIN
{
# unshift(@INC, "/wherever/you/put/CGI-FastTemplate/");
unshift(@INC, "/www/amdragon/cgi-bin/");
}

Now let's get ready to rumble...

[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Have you done enough speed tests yet with the template version to know if the load is going to be increased substantially? It would be nice to know that it's going to be worth the trouble before we go ahead with rolling in our hacks.

[]http://www.amdragon.com/images/eileensig.gif[/]

Load really shouldn't be increased. The big load is starting up the scripts to begin with.

I'm sure performance will improve over time as the quirks are worked out though.

Perl is an excellent text processing/parsing language. That is what it was designed for. These sort of applications are right up it's alley.

I've done a few, but I'd like to get a little feedback from anyone using the dev version on their own server so I can see what they think. I may be overcautious about this but I'd hate to go full steam ahead on the templates and then find out they are creating server problems. So if anyone is using the dev version on their own server and has done any tests on load, post here or send me an email about your results.