UBB.Developers Forums General Discussion Suggestions and Feedback Need comparisons - UBBThreads vs Vbulletin, etc...

Just to give some evidnce for my claims that queries are not the be all and end all, this is the result of my showthread.php on my site:

Page generated in 0.15240395069122 seconds with 23 queries,
spending 0.043401837348938 doing MySQL queries and 0.10900211334229 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.16944599151611 seconds with 23 queries,
spending 0.057216882705688 doing MySQL queries and 0.11222910881042 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.15401101112366 seconds with 23 queries,
spending 0.043453693389893 doing MySQL queries and 0.11055731773376 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.17569303512573 seconds with 23 queries,
spending 0.043526411056519 doing MySQL queries and 0.13216662406921 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.15374398231506 seconds with 23 queries,
spending 0.043373703956604 doing MySQL queries and 0.11037027835846 doing PHP things.

Just to give some evidnce for why the number of queries is not the most important thing, here the execution of the script takes generally double the time of that spent doing mySQL stuff.

Strangley enough, memberlist.php which has less queries takes longer:


Page generated in 0.36566996574402 seconds with 8 queries,
spending 0.27704405784607 doing MySQL queries and 0.088625907897949 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.24585998058319 seconds with 8 queries,
spending 0.13530337810516 doing MySQL queries and 0.11055660247803 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.26208698749542 seconds with 8 queries,
spending 0.15155696868896 doing MySQL queries and 0.11053001880646 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.30834305286407 seconds with 8 queries,
spending 0.23045933246613 doing MySQL queries and 0.077883720397949 doing PHP things.

Page generated in 0.34207499027252 seconds with 8 queries,
spending 0.28613305091858 doing MySQL queries and 0.055941939353943 doing PHP things.

This shows that:

a) Sometimes the PHP code takes longer to execute than the queries but you seem to ignore the time taken by PHP code in any evaluation of efficiency because you based it SOLELY on number of queries

b) That some scripts which have less queries take longer in mySQL than other scripts with more queries.

Pretty much defeats your argument.

Soooo.... you are saying vb's php coding is even less efficient than their queries? I wouldn't write that in a competitor's support forum, but hey, that's you

I tell you what, have jelsoft loan me a vb and a ubb=>vb import script and I'll import ubbdev into threads and vb and run some side-by-side tests on them both on the same server - should be easy enough

Allen, you actually amaze me. Do you actually read anything? I know people like to defend their products but after a long reply that is what you can come up with? Did you think that the php execution happened instantly or something? That in fact it took no time to do the PHP and that it all instantly happened? Why shouldn't the PHP take more time to execute than the SQL queries? Is there something that suggests it is better to have mySQL as the backlog. I would think anyone who knew anything about these sort of things would realise it is better to have it the other way round because it is far easier to organise load sharing on apache than it is on mysql.

I am sorry but either you are just very busy and don't actually read anything I have written, you are blind to obvious facts or you don't understand it. I have not at any point claimed what is better or worse between vbulletin or threads just questioned you on your claim that for some reason vbulletin is worse.

If you get a chance perhaps read the actual arguments against what you have said. You never know, in future you might be a little more objective.

If you are interested in doing an evaluation between the two products contact someone at Jelsoft. I would think however that the result would be more biased than asking Microsoft to test Linux, but even Microsoft could probably not get away with some of your arguments.

heheh... was just joshing you with that last reply - you got a sore spot there? Of course poorly written html/php will adversely affect server load - that's a given. Put the wrong doc-type in there and your members using Macs will slow to a crawl as it tries to spit out the right files. A lot of things make a difference - only a few of them are controllable by the software makers. You gotta admit that too many queries are one of, if not the major affector of server load tho on php/mysql forums - and threads does it better than any of the other forums out there that have this info available.

I really don't know anyone at jelsoft to ask, I am sure I am not on any of their Christmas card lists What I would do tho is relatively simple and easily verifiable. Importing the same forum into both on the same server should eliminate any other aspects that could make a difference. A report of queries and generation times for all major sections of a forum with links to the pages tested wouldn't be the be-all end-all for testing, but would be a good first start, and show both companies where bottle-necks are in comparison to the other. Up to you guys - I am sure I could get a copy of vb, but not so sure of an import script - for testing purposes only, there shouldn't be a problem with copyright then

To ask for a copy best thing to do would be to send a request via the online form at vbulletin. I would like to see it done as well so long as the methodology on how it is done is shown. As for importing, it would probably be better to simulate posting to the system, like the previous tests of the ubb/vbulletin. This would ensure that the posts were created properly and things like searchindexes properly formed etc.

Any I have said i agree with you that keeping down the number of queries is one aim and I can assure you vb devs go to great strains to cut down the queries however the only way to test performance of forums is to test them in a live situation not just look at figures. I think we are agreed on this now, or I hope so

OK, this is my take on all this and I actually own both licenses.

I have been running a UBB (classic) board for well over a year and it has grown well in that time. Everything was going great until one day my web host cut my server resources and paralysed my forum for days. I quickly found a new host and decided to move to a new, database-driven solution. The question was which one. I didn't want my UBB users to feel alienated so I wanted it to be as similar to UBB as possible. I chose to give three different packages a closer look: Threads, vB, and phpBB.

I looked at phpBB first but being a free piece of software I didn't feel I could trust the technical support to be there when I needed it. But overall I considered the interface and design to be superior to Threads or vB. I honestly thought it looked great... and I still do. But I didn't want to go for a freebie so I had to drop phpBB from my list.

I then looked at Threads because I figured that moving to another Infopop product would be best. But after a close look it became very evident that Threads is not a solution for the UBB user. It's too different and looks a hell of a lot worse than the freebie (phpBB) I just checked out. In fact if you showed all three to someone who had no clue about bulletin boards and asked them which the freebie is, I'd put my money on over 95% pointing to Threads. It looked tragic to say the least (I'm sure long-time Threads users are getting their bows&arrows ready) and after installing it it took me all two minutes to wipe my database and move on.

I then went to vB. I am good friends with two admins of the largest sportsbetting bulletin boards in the US and both have recently moved from UBB to other software outside of Infopop. As I mentioned, Infopop left a hole in their product line that other companies such as vB eagerly exploited. If you had a UBB board and had to move up but couldn't afford Open Topic (not just moneywise, but also because you wanted to host in a different country), you pretty much had to leave Infopop. UBB and Open Topic look alike, but Threads was the odd one out and didn't look anything remotely similar to an Infopop product. Anyway, one chose an odd piece of software: fusetalk. I can't say I'm a fan of it because it looks nothing like UBB, but it probably does the fastest searches of any software on the market. Russ (the admin) wanted to move to a Cold Fusion product and he decided this was the best choice for him. I didn't like it and although I've gotten used to it I still think it was a bad choice. It's definitely one of the ugliest looking boards I've ever come across.

My other friend chose to move to vB which is why I also gave this software a try. My first impressions of the software were great. I was delighted because it seemed to have the look and feel of UBB (now I know why) and things looked promising. I was ready to move over. Earlier I mentioned the gap in Infopop's product line which others were exploiting. Well vB seemed to be doing a good job, at least on paper. Their importer went miles further than Infopop's own (Threads). It took your message icons and your smilies and your buttons for 'new message' and 'reply', your old fonts, your moderators, etc. It was the works, it seemed to have it all. Everything was geared towards making your new vB board look as similar to your old UBB as possible straight off the bat - probably to keep you there. Infopop did nothing off the sort, which is why as I mentioned before I went into shock upon seeing my new Threads board and deleted it after two minutes.

And this is where everything went wrong. Friends of mine had slightly older versions of their UBB and they managed to port over to vB without any troubles. But I always updated to the most recent version and the importer wouldn't work. I then saw that the new vB importer was supposed to have been finished two months ago. The weeks dragged on and still no importer, and people at vB were starting to get arrogant, stating that they have better things to do rather than follow Infopop's every move, which to me was equivalent to saying, "we couldn't care less if you can move over your board or not." So much for caring about your customers who just purchased a license...

And so I was stuck in limbo. There were two hopeful paths to take: A) wait for vB's new importer (something like 8 weeks delayed). B) wait for Threads 6 to come out because it was mentioned that it could be configured to look like UBB. And this is where I now stand. On the one hand I hear that the import module is complete and that I can move to vB. On the other hand Threads 6 will be out this month so I might as well wait the extra two weeks. And then I'll have to make a choice: Threads or vB. Which one will it be? That I don't know.

I'd like to stay with Threads because it's an Infopop product and I believe the support is much better. vB also doesn't seem to care about foreign users because their board is an absolute nightmare to translate. On top of that I know someone (vaguely) who did all the hard work in translating his forum, but when I asked him if he could send me the translation he claimed they were all in control panel files or something like that. He said it would be too much trouble for him because it's all scattered in different templaces or files, either of the two. To me this is actually an issue because the board I'm responsible for is in a different language. I went through torture translating UBB 5.x , and when WordLets came out I was overjoyed. Someone took the effort to make things easy for me. In Threads the language issue looked even brighter. Language files were separate from the rest and could all be found in one place. Moreover, you could let your users choose their own language in the preferences screen meaning that you could run a multi-lingual interface on your board!

But these are all side issues that can be overcome. My first priority is to make my users feel comfortable - my new board must resemble UBB. If I carried out a poll I'm sure the general look and feel of vB would sway the majority of votes in its favour. If Infopop has a new and enchanced importer ready with Threads 6 as well as the UBB templates, they can count me in. I'll definitely move over to Threads, 100%. But right now I'm not hearing any updates on the situation so I'm not sure what's going on.

One thing is for certain, I can't affort to get booted by my current web host. Which means I can't delay my move from UBB to either Threads or vB much longer. If Threads 6 lives up to its expectations and the promises are fulfilled then I'll be glad I waited this long. But if Threads still looks like a mutant compared to UBB then I'll have no other choice but to pack my bags and move over to vB.

Overall, the things that bother me the most about both companies are the following:

vB: lack of multilingual capabilities or even the possibility of smoothly translating the board into another language. Arrogant approach with regards to users moving from other bulletin boards.

Infopop: gap in the product line. We have UBB.classic, UBB.threads, UBB.x, and Open Topic. Three look great. One doesn't. Guess which one? The one I need to move to. Why can't UBB.x be released to people for hosting on their own servers? It's not the money but the location of the servers that makes it a bad solution in my case. In most cases a server located out fo the country won't do the trick. The transfer rates will be dreadful when contrasted to what they would be domestically. Try hosting a US web site in Portugal or France and see where that would take you.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting the release of Threads 6 so that I can see which path my board will take...

Allen,

You mentioned the possibility of running tests to compare server load between two different bulletin board programs.

Is it possible to run a comparison for UBB.classic and UBB.threads? I'm certain that Threads is the most efficient software on the market, but still it would be good to know ahead of time what the figures are (as I am planning on moving up from UBB).

It's possible, but would require a good bit of work on the benchmarks for .classic We had them for 6.1, but that was a while back.... maybe we can update for 6.3

Maybe

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........ Bored?

No,curious.

Ummm... Rick.... Your software is ! (mildly tweaked by 'UA' of course.)

www.UtterAccess.com

Not even breaking a sweat around any mid- weekday EST is the busy time. 'Shiny New Server' is 1 and only 1 (MMF'n Nasty) server.

Gord

Pssssst, this topic is like a year and a half old...

holy ship it is! And?

Nothing, still waiting for the benchamark tests....