UBB.Developers Forums General Discussion Suggestions and Feedback New column

Can you guys summarise what the new column represents please.

Ta.

Darren.
http://www.bullpen.com.au

Its being worked on, might of been empty when you asked. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]
New replies in this thread.

Mateo Byler
CruceDeCaminos.com

And there are no orange icons. Is this also part of the deal?

Darren.
http://www.bullpen.com.au

Correct. This gives you one place to look for new messages in a thread, and it doesn't take trying to distinguish the color of an icon.

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

I don't know how the response will be Scream, to be honest I'm not sure it's necessary. Also moving closer to UBB look. It was good to have the post icon serving two purposes.

Darren.
http://www.bullpen.com.au

My feedback: I don't feel any more I am obliged to read the unread posts. That's not a bad effect to my mind []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Since we are back on the topic of the "new" icon etc., is there any chance of having a way to distinguish new threads from old threads that merely have new replies? I suppose you can tell from the difference of the link color but that doesn't work if you switch between flat/threaded.

Bill Dimm, MagPortal.com - [:red]free feeds for your site.

I've just been going with the designer suggestions. Not trying to make this look like any other forum but any time I can do something to make it look better, I'm all for it[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]. We'll see what the general opinion is. If everyone hates it we can switch back.

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

It is less intrusive then the new markers being splattered all over the place, isn't it?[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

Not sure if this is possible or not. In order to do that we'd need to know if the number of new unread replies is less than the number of total replies, and this would take more calculations per thread. We know if there are new replies, but not how many are read/unread.

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

Yes, for sure... and I think that was one of the main goals. Can you reduce the replies column width now? Make it big enough for 3 digits... and instead of 'Replies' just use 'RE' as MTO suggested. That's what I would do. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

[:blue]Not sure if this is possible or not. In order to do that we'd need to know if the number of new unread replies is less than the number of total replies, and this would take more calculations per thread. We know if there are new replies, but not how many are read/unread.

Yeah, and if you went that far, you could then list the # of new replies on postlist... I think it is good now, to save the extra calculations/resources.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Do you think users will understand what RE means? I guess my real question is, will that look funny where every other heading is spelled out but then on that one column it's abbreviated?

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

Hmm, yeah. It actually doesn't really matter here since you use 90% of the screen, or so. If the width is restricted though, I guess we could just dig into the code and change it easily. I guess other feedback on this one would be good. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Hmmm, this is quite interesting Scream, and it brings up all sorts of things for me--but I'll try to keep this as short as possible []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/].

You're definetly on to something with this new 'new' feature, but it begs the question "what is it that regular forum users really need?". The answer is simplicity. Underneath all the toys needs to be a solid, easy-to-use foundation, and w3t falls a little short.

For example, my forum client list is expanding to include software/hardware development companies and overwhelmingly the users of these forums want to be able to log in, find the new messages, reply to them if they want and get the hell outta' there. You just can't do this with w3t as currently you have to wade through the old messages to find the new ones.

Before you got too far with this latest edition maybe the thing to do is to find out what is really needed.

I'd suggest the following:

When a person logs in they should have the option of viewing only the new messages of any particular board. If they choose this option and view a 'new' message listed, and then return to the index for the board it should still list the new messages only. If the user then wants to view all the messages in the board there should be an option listed somewhere, i.e. View All Messages. This should revert the users view to show all the messages of the board they are currently in.

The 'new' flags should remain persistant until the user 'logs out' of that board, clearing the 'new' flags. This way, regardless of how the user views the board, if they want to view and/or reply to the new messages later, the unread (or read) 'new' messages can be quickly found.

I imagine that this feature might be extremely difficult to code, but it is an essential part of the foundation of a good forum.

Given that, and since I know nothing about perl/php and MySql, I've been tinkering with my old Miva script forums. I've been tweaking my Miva forums for a while now and and know them inside and out. While they are extremely simple, they are also extremely easy to use--but, they're ugly. Lately though I've been inspired by w3t to make them better looking.

I'm currently working on the layout of a demo Miva forum so that I can have that 'ease-of-use' and groovy good looks too.
This Miva forum isn't nearly done yet (layout), but while it doesn't include markup, emoticons and such, it does have the ease-of-use that I mention above (and without using cookies). If you visit this forum please register so you can see what I'm talking about--I know you have a 'I don't visit other forums' policy, but this sample is essentially a w3t lite-lite-lite rip-off []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]. Also, please ignore the look of funky log in page--I'm totaly redesigning it to include a lurkers forum listing. []/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/]

I'm sure others here could add to my list of suggestions (or tell me to bug off entirely []/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/]) and I'm really interested in others views.

Socrates
ForumExperts

There are a couple of things to discuss here.

First, currently all new threads or threads with new replies in them are at the top of each forum. While this does give easy access to new posts you still have to pass by the replies you have read already.

Next. Say we have an option that only shows new posts on a particular forum. You are going to be limited to 2 ways to display it. You can do it one way by listing the individual new posts like we do on the Recent Message listing or you can show the new posts in flat mode. Because you wouldn't be listing the replies in a thread you have already looked at you can't do a threading format because the thread logic would be gone without the early posts in the thread.

This new location of the new message marker isn't necessarily a new feature it's just possibly a better solution to the old way of doing it. So, at this point it wasn't meant to be a jumping point into a new design, etc. Just a small enhancement.

Sometimes, the amount of options that W3T has can limit some of the other things you can do. If, for example, we only had flat mode, then it would be pretty simple to only show new messages in a thread. Or if we didn't allow for users to choose the option of how many replies they want to show per page when viewing in flat mode, we could probably jump directly to the new posts.

What you are talking about is something that will be worked on in a future upgrade. The real plan would be to have an option for your favorite boards and then the "my w3t" page would be changed to utilize this. You would have links within your start page to show the new messages on your favorite forums. None of this has been really thought out on how it will exactly work, but it will come.

As for keeping the posts marked new until a user logs out of the board creates confusion. In my early versions of this program, about 1.3 or something I used to do that. But everyone complained because they couldn't tell if they had already read the thread or not when returning to the post listing.

I'm definitely open to making things easier for the end user, but like I said, sometimes we are limited on what type of things we can do because of all of the options in the program and the variety of display modes.



-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

Your forum looks an awful lot like W3T to me... []/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]

I have made this suggestion many times, and I think Scream has it in the plans... to me the ability to view new messages since last login easily is the only real feature missing from the actual use of the forum (some admin stuff could be added, and he's working on that too).

Hard to say W3T falls short in many areas, really... ease of use is one of the best things about it. Almost everything flows as it should, and makes sense.

With the addition of a new messages since last login feature (maybe within the myW3T feature, here) I don't know how many forums out there will be able to touch W3T... now in PHP. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Yeah, we can't have everything and still have it all work. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/] I think a lot of things could come out of the myW3T feature once more ideas are mentioned, etc...

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Hehehe, I thought you'd feel that way. But isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Just before I posted my other message I went back and punched in the 'Powered by...' table for kicks []/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/][]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/]

We have to remember Muhammad that the more we use and tweak w3t the more familiar it becomes to us. As we become familiar with it it becomes easy to say, "gosh, if only users had a neato button that made the category lists change order", when in reality, you can't even view new messages only...

The main reason I'm even tweaking my Miva forum is bacause recently a big software development comany hired me to host a forum for them. I used a w3t forum and overwhelimngly the user hated it for the lack of simplicity.. They loved all the groovy features but a lot of users really needed a way to hit the forum quickly, get the new messages and bug out. The lack of this ability (especially for new users) scares people away. As a result, I'm cleaning up my Miva forums to look nicer, and they're going to use it instead.

Don't get me wrong guys, I still think w3t is the best forum on the planet, but while it's loaded with fun features it seems to lack an essential basic function that is soooo important.

Socrates
ForumExperts

[:blue]Just before I posted my other message I went back and punched in the 'Powered by...' table for kicks

Yeah, as if the other stuff wasn't enough, I was thinking, man... []/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/]

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

In reply to:

---

Yeah, we can't have everything and still have it all work

---

That's not entirely true: It just depends on how little sleep Scream can live on []/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]

Socrates
ForumExperts

In reply to:

---

The real plan would be to have an option for your favorite boards and then the "my w3t" page would be changed to utilize this. You would have links within your start page to show the new messages on your favorite forums. None of this has been really thought out on how it will exactly work, but it will come

---

That sounds great Scream, but if it takes a three page FAQ to explain how this feature works it could put off a large segment of forum users in general. I still say having a 'View New Messages' button in each board is a wonderfully simple part of the solution.

Socrates
ForumExperts

In english re means regarding and would probably confuse a lot of new users.

Socrates
ForumExperts

I don't think it would take much to explain the myW3T feature, if at all... the way I envision it, anyway.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Yeah, it is an easy change for those who want it to be RE.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

So if you only view new messages, how can you know what they are talking about? You have to remember what you read yesterday?

Mateo Byler
CruceDeCaminos.com

Yeah, very true... I don't have that kind of memory! I have never seen forums that only list new messages... just ones that link to pages containing the threads, or a spot on the page where the new message is. Kind of like it is done here for the recent messages, how it links to the threaded page... easy to get the reply.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

[:blue]Do you think users will understand what RE means? I guess my real question is, will that look funny where every other heading is spelled out but then on that one column it's abbreviated?

Yes, I think they will understand what "Re:" means, not RE, but "Re:". Everytime you get into your email program you see it, you use it everyday. It is a standard. There will be no doubt specially once they see numbers in the column. Anyone who has used email for more than one week knows what it means.

Mateo Byler
CruceDeCaminos.com

In reply to:

---

I don't think it would take much to explain the myW3T feature, if at all... the way I envision it, anyway.

---

Maybe you're right, but not being in your head I don't know for sure. []/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/]

However, my suggestion would require only one sentence to describe:

List New Messages


Socrates
ForumExperts

Exactly... that's why I'll be changing my froums to Re: ...

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

Yeah, true... but the myW3T will have many other features, too, and to some users the other features might be just as important, if not more important. One of the objectives of myW3T is to clear up the menu bar, by moving the edit profile, and send/check private links to myW3T.

Muhammad Chishti
Creative dIRECTOR
[:white]http://www.imcuniverse.com

In reply to:

---

So if you only view new messages, how can you know what they are talking about? You have to remember what you read yesterday?

---

When a user chooses the 'list new messages only' option it would take them to a 'subject only' listing (much the same as when viewing messages in a board, in collapsed mode). If they see a message title that interests them they select it and it opens the entire thread for that message. When they are done with that thread or message they select 'Index', which returns them to the 'New' message list.

If they want to view all messages on a board they simply select a 'List All Messages' option.

Socrates
ForumExperts

Regarding?!! []/w3timages/icons/shocked.gif[/]
Haha. []/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/]

Mateo Byler
CruceDeCaminos.com

Why not just look at the date in the B_Posted field for the message at the head of the thread and see if it is newer than the most recent visit to the board?

Bill Dimm, MagPortal.com - [:red]free feeds for your site.

Was it something I said?! []/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/]

Socrates
ForumExperts

OK, that would seem interesting.
But I would almost preffer that when you have:
[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/] I would like to know... 1 2 3 4
when you click on the title itself it takes you to the page where unread messages start. I know this would be very difficult... but as a matter of prefference, that would be the coolest. Maybe impossible because of the threat mode (... oh, I mean "threaded mode") combination with flat. But if it could be done... it would take care of that for me.

Mateo Byler
CruceDeCaminos.com

Previously the post icon served the dual purpose of giving an identifying image to the thread and showing if there were messages in the thread that were new.

I always felt this was superior to UBB which needed two columns, one for the post icon and one for a folder icon which was orangey (not read) or yellowy (read).

I don't really see where the image of the word 'new' which used to be in the reply column fits into the whole picture. If it was confusing to some then it could be removed or replaced by the sun-looking picture.

MTO and Muhammad put forward the idea. Can you guys explain the benefits of how it looks at the moment to how it looked before.

Darren.
http://www.bullpen.com.au

Here are a couple of the most common complaints that have been voiced since I've had it the way it was.

On some systems, the different colored post icons were hard to distinguish.

Using a seperate set of icons for new threads added to bandwidth used on busy forums.

There were 2 different places to look if a thread was nor or if it had new messages.

I figured by doing it this way then there is one place to look. Users can change the newmarker to whatever they want it to be for their site.

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer

That's great I'm beginning to see a point to it. A couple of things,

1. Which systems were the difference between orange and yellow hard to distinguish?

2. When I visit this site, and view a postlist the icons used on the page are downloaded. If I then click on the thread and view in showflat, are they being downloaded again or being retrieved from my cache?

3. Where do you look now to see if a thread is new or just has new messages?

Finally, being able to customise the newmarker is an excellent benefit to this sytem.

Darren.
http://www.bullpen.com.au

I'm not sure if it was so much a system problem or a user problem. Some of the emails I get on problems aren't too descriptive. Usually it was something like "some of my users are having a hard time telling what color the icons are". I'm not sure if that is because some are color blind, old, bad monitors, etc.[]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/]

Icons are normally retrieved from cache once they have been viewed at once. The argument against 2 sets of icons is it wouldn't read from the cached icon if it was a new icon. Obviously, this is minimal because the icon size is small anyways.

Right now you just look to the same place. If there is any part of a thread that you haven't seen, be it a brand new thread or a thread that has some unread replies, it will always be in the same place. BillD suggested a different icon for threads that have unread replies and this is something I'm going to see if I can do. Although I'm not sure what type of icon would be used for the default on that.

-------------------
Scream
WWWThreads Developer